“I believe people are made in images of God.” – Marilynne Robinson
How often an interview is done by a former or a sitting US president? A president is always granting interviews to others. However, in one instance, breaking away from the protocol, Barack Obama traveled to Des Moines, Iowa to be a first time contender to have a chat with fiction writer/theologian (an uncompromising Protestant) Marilynne Robinson. Sometimes she even preaches at her church. In September 2015, it was an impromptu decision, and Obama decided to have a chat with his favorite author. The purpose of this visit was for Obama to be a books journalist for a day to talk with Robinson about religion, democracy and many other things that had played a profound impact on him and his presidency. “Robinson is best known for her fiction—four quietly beautiful novels about religion, family, suffering, and grace in small-town America.” Obama and Robinson talked about writing, and faith. Barack Obama has been a fan of Marilynne’s fictional work and essays ever since he picked up her book Gilead (a fictional city set in Iowa)in the middle of a campaigning trip during his first term.
Robinson rose to international fame after winning the Pulitzer Prize in 2005 in fiction for Gilead. Barack Obama, an avid reader, had read the Gilead and Home and was very captivated by these books. Obama met up with Robinson at the Public Library to have an extraordinary conversation. The 4,000-word interview was later published in the November issue of The New York Review of Books. The chronicle covers a century of life in Gilead from Congregational Pastor John Ames’ grandfather’s time. The candid conversation between two unlikely alliances (a writer and a president) made me revisit the interview once more as I have just finished reading Gilead for the second time for my Book Club. The chat between the two sheds light on the influence Marilynne Robinson had on Barack Obama in shaping his philosophy in life.
“Obama’s obvious adoration for Robinson’s work is an interesting counterpoint to the religious rumors that have clouded Obama’s presidency. Robinson is one of America’s most celebrated Christian authors.” Marilynn’s novels are “meditations on faith.” Reading Gilead had given Barack Obama an insight to the questions he was grappling with during his campaign as he was dealing with many issues of his identity — his birth, citizenship, religion, and growing up as a biracial child. At the backdrop of his election controversy the lingering and burning question that has always dogged the white supremacists was — with a Muslim father from Kenya and a Christian mother from the Midwest – how Muslim was he?
The relationship between Obama and Robinson predates the interview. Obama knew Robinson as he awarded her with the National Humanities Medal at the White House in 2012. For long he has been a fan of her writing and was familiar with her fictional work. Obama was mesmerized by Robinson’s take on politics and culture at the dinner he had arranged to have with her. Since then they kept in touch until they met again for the interview in Des Moines.
Robinson and Obama shares a tender moment after she was honored with the National Humanities Award in 2012 Medal at the White House.
One might wonder, as a former president who could have easily sent Robinson a polite invitation to come and talk, why did he take the trouble of travelling to Iowa to meet with her. We are not talking about just any president here – it was Barack Hussein Obama – an epitome of civility, class, humility, and everything else that a true gentleman represents. Instead of summoning Robinson to the White House he went to meet his idol, Marilynne Robinson. In Barack Obama’s own words: “But one of the things that I don’t get a chance to do as often as I’d like is just to have a conversation with somebody who I enjoy and I’m interested in; to hear from them and have a conversation with them about some of the broader cultural forces that shape our democracy and shape our ideas, and shape how we feel about citizenship and the direction that the country should be going. And so we had this idea that why don’t I just have a conversation with somebody I really like and see how it turns out. And you were first in the queue …”
Robinson’s writings are quite familiar to me. Among her other books that I loved reading are Housekeeping (her first novel), Home, and Lila. A few months back, I had read a collection of her essays titled “What are we doing here? The essays “reveal the limits of her restrained metaphysics.” I was initially introduced to Marilynn’s books by one of my family members. She had studied with Marilynne Robinson for two years at the Iowa Writers’ Workshop as an MFA student of fiction writing. She gave me a copy of the Gilead during my first visit to Iowa City in the summer, a few years ago.
Gilead is an incredible story about the celebration of life. The story is told in a very measured way through Reverend John Ames. It is autobiographical in tone where sixty year old Ames is facing death from a prolonged illness. He decided to write a letter to his 7 year old son (with a young wife) as he will not be there to see him grow up. The novel reveals the human condition and “manages to convey the miracle of existence itself.”
Obama is very well-read and asserted that he was inspired by Robinson’s writing as he finds her work exhilarating. Reading and grasping Marilynne Robinson is not child’s play. But if you can get into her book and finish, it is accompanied by a sense of pride and satisfaction. Obama beforehand told Robinson that sitting with her to have an honest conversation is something he will forever cherish. It is uncharacteristic of him to do something like this when he is out of Washington DC. In such times he is either going to a political event, rally or a town hall meet up to talk to the voters. In those events, he covers “planned and scripted” issues. That is how things are run during a campaign trail. The politicians try to “drive a very particular message that day about education or about manufacturing.” They do not discuss literary work. Obama tells Robinson that he usually reads her book when he is being driven between towns to an event. When he returns home, he finishes the book during his downtime. Reading Robinson creates a sense of relaxation for him after a grueling day at the campaign trail. He started reading Gilead during a campaigning trip to Iowa.
They talked about what Marilynne thinks of his rival (Donald Trump) who was spreading lies and confusing the voters about him being a Muslim. They also delved into popular “liberal” topics – political divides, cable news on TV, how love can manifest in a hospital emergency room, and homespun Iowa values.
In summarizing the interview, I came away with some illuminating points about two revered individuals in their respective fields. The philosophical discussion about life and its deeper meanings was an eye opener about what goes through the minds of a politician and a writer with deep Christian beliefs.
Apparently, Obama had no difficulty in exploring different topics during the discourse. He reflects on how over the years reading Marilynn’s novels had changed the entirety of his life. In the end, I came away with the understanding that these individuals are alike in many ways rather than different despite their vocations. The two friends in-depth discussed life, living, its challenges, political climate, and the simple pleasures of life. For example, at the time 74 year old Robinson confessed just being able to get up to see the new day brings her immense pleasure. This reminded me of an Emily Dickenson quote: “To be alive is so amazing there’s hardly time for anything else.”Now, at 81, Robinson is still writing. Her latest work is Reading Genesis which came out in 2024.
The discussion primarily centered on the meaning of life, but it had other subtexts as well. In the novel, John Ames similarly searched for life’s meaning, and in the final analysis found the answer as such: In life looking for something to be appreciative of and be thankful for is its ultimate reward.
There were lots of laughs as well during the interview. Obama joked that since he is promoting her books those who may not have read her, will read now because of their conversation. He was proud that both he and Robinson had deep roots in the Midwest with an Iowa connection. Marilynne taught at the Writers’ Workshop for 25 years. On January 3, 2008, Barack Obama won the Iowa caucuses, it was a historic moment for a young Senator of color. In Iowa, a book came out titled “The Iconic Obama.”
“And I’ve told you this—one of my favorite characters in fiction is a pastor in Gilead, Iowa, named John Ames, who is gracious and courtly, and a little bit confused about how to reconcile his faith with all the various travails that his family goes through. And I was just—I just fell in love with the character, fell in love with the book, and then you and I had a chance to meet when you got a fancy award at the White House. And then we had dinner and our conversations continued ever since.” – Barack Obama
Additional notes from the conversation:
Robinson grew up in a small town in Idaho. Obama said he could relate to that as he was brought up by his mother and maternal grandparents (who are from Kansas) with Midwestern values. He could easily connect with small town people as the population is smaller, and the connection is natural and easier. In later years, as he crossed through small town America, and met people they reminded him of his grandparents with the same set of values. Through the prism of small town America, Obama saw his own life and how very privileged he was to have accomplished so much given how segregated America was back then. America still is and it is very evident when we visit some parts of Middle America.
Obama further wanted to know if her parents were into books. Marilynn’s candid confession was that her parents were not bookish people. Her mother was a stay at home mom. Her father was a middle management worker in a lumbering company. Marilynne and her older brother were under no pressure to succeed in life. Her parents had a certain set of simple values and they expected their children to grow up as honest people. Obama’s Midwestern grandparents had instilled the same values in him from early on. Homespun virtues are a repeated theme in Robinson’s books. That is where Obama connects with Robinson the most.
Obama wondered how Robinson decoded the meaning of democracy, excelled in writing, and interpreted faith in the modern context i.e., in the language of progressive and educated America coming from a relatively unknown town in Idaho. Marilynn’s answer was simple: years of writing, teaching, and meeting people across the globe while on travel has shaped her thinking. Writing is one thing that comes easily to Marilynne Robinson.
During the conversation they both agreed that people do not always treat each other the way you want them to for democracy to cultivate. They talked about political vs. common life. Obama said he wrestles with the fact that there is a huge inequality gap in society. Both agreed that America is not yet ready to close the gap. Reducing inequality takes a lot more than having a round table discussion. It involves investing in education, proper distribution of resources, and people have to develop proper skills.
Then his focus once again was religion, and he asked Robinson how does she define religious dogma without being mean-spirited and sinister? Robinson replied, “She interprets the Christian faith through her own lens, focusing on God’s love,” and emphasized that God also forgives.
Barack Obama spoke in great length about Robinson’s essay titled FEAR. In it Robinson analyses “pervasive fears smothering American culture. Rather than give in to alarmism, she reminds us that the best antidote to fear is not more security and higher walls, it’s more faith, hope, and love.”
In spite of what the critics say, Marilynne Robinson is immensely proud of the American Education system. She used to frequent the college campuses to deliver lectures, to exchange ideas and listen to what the students and other faculty were thinking. New ideas of others intrigued her. Most of her essay collections are a compilation of her lectures.
Both Robinson and Obama recognized that there is a nagging dissatisfaction among the American people. The quintessential restlessness among the adventurous Americans has not stopped despite the industrial revolution, and technological advancements. People are always searching for a sense of purpose and excitement in finding out the meaning of life. Therefore, they set out to find it and their favorite destination is the West. They escape the routine bound mundane life to look for something better, fulfilling, and challenging.
In an answer to Obama’s question Robinson said, her interest in Christianity converges with democracy. “Democracy is the logical consequence of humanism,” says Marilynne. To Obama, Christianity often seems “wishy washy liberal version,” and that frustrates Robinson. She believes people who take religion seriously are ready to encounter difficulty. To her, “Christianity is counterintuitive. Christianity is a difficult challenge.” She confesses it’s not easy to be a good Christian.
The two friends agreed that the government should not be a system of oppression. They discussed why the predominantly minority schools in America were so bad. Those schools do not discuss racism, diversity in American democracy, nor do they explain Christianity. Therefore, the youth do not know how to love someone who does not look like you.
In Gilead, Reverend John Ames also struggled to answer that question in the letter to his son. He also grappled with the issue of forgiveness. How does one go about forgiving someone who had wronged someone, and left without apologizing for his sins? Is atonement not a Christian virtue? Years later when the prodigal son of his friend Jack Boughton returns to Gilead after thirty years, Ames knows that he needs to forgive him before he dies. But he does not know how to do it and struggles to find an answer.
The President: “Are you somebody who worries about people not reading novels anymore? And do you think that has an impact on the culture? When I think about how I understand my role as citizen, setting aside being president, and the most important set of understandings that I bring to that position of citizen, the most important stuff I’ve learned I think I’ve learned from novels. It has to do with empathy. It has to do with being comfortable with the notion that the world is complicated and full of grays, but there’s still truth there to be found, and that you have to strive for that and work for that. And the notion that it’s possible to connect with some [one] else even though they’re very different from you.”
Seemingly Obama was thinking a lot about Robinson. “And so I wonder when you’re sitting there writing longhand in some—your messy longhand somewhere—so I wonder whether you feel as if that same shared culture is as prevalent and as important in the lives of people as it was, say, when you were that little girl in Idaho, coming up, or whether you feel as if those voices have been overwhelmed by flashier ways to pass the time.”
Robinson wrote an essay on Obama in her collection “What are we doing here?” Her adoration for him does not need an explanation. Robinson admitted she loves Obama as a person but hates his politics. “She’s not interested in Obama as a maker of policy—she’s interested in Obama as Christ. Here’s how she begins the chapter: ‘Let us say, as a thought experiment, that History and Providence conspired to create a president suited to twenty-first-century America.’ “Good lord.” – Dissent Magazine. She also defended him about some of the hard decisions he took in the name of “saving others” as a president. Marilynne got a lot of flak for that from the leftists for saying it. She made no bones about her being a “pessimist” about American politics as it is a source of subjugation.
In conclusion, Barack Obama sought to find out how Marilynne Robinson created the narrative for Gilead, her masterwork. He wanted to understand how the novel takes place “from the point of view of a Christian pastor.” Gilead is considered, “a spiritual meditation on the mystery of God’s grace.” Given the theme, how did she find the voice for her novel in rural Iowa surrounded by cornfields – considering she had traveled around the world giving invaluable lectures? Barack Obama was bent on finding out how Robinson totally immersed herself in that Iowa setting to write about John Ames. Marilynne Robinson seemed to have surprised him with her answer. She revealed that it was actually in a Massachusetts town during the Christmas holidays as her son walked in through the door — she found her voice. Robinson immediately had a sense of how she was going to let the story unfold.
Zeenat Khan writes from Maryland, USA
